The political response, the basic political response, I mean the policy response, is open to good-faith debate. What we are seeing here is a result of innate differences between the races.”, We’ve not even talked through questions of what it even means to talk about races and the way that has changed over time, but I’ll just bracket that. You’re horrified by the history of racism, and you feel that the kinds of social policies that Murray favors would be disastrous. I think that there is a lot of discussion like this in the public sphere just generally at the moment. Okay, but what we can’t disagree about is that one, that the two sides of that conversation about scientific data appear to be given a very different moral treatment by you. I’m a policy journalist. The onus was on us to prove we’re not Nazis. And I don’t think that is me falling into a trap of identity politics. It’s a completely separate conversation, and I totally share your concern about racism and inequality. "Markets don’t give a shit about who’s president": Wall Street’s biggest 2020 fear is a contested result. What is the purpose of doing this?” Murray responds, and, again, I’m quoting: Because we now have social policy embedded in employment policy, in academic policy, which is based on the premise that everybody is equal above the neck, whether it is men, or women, or whether it is ethnicities. This is the situation I think we’re in. You can Google up, I think my first article on the topic is titled “How Rich is Too Rich?” You can go down the rabbit hole after that. This is the problem that you appear to be unprepared for, okay? I’ve reviewed his books. They discuss how conceptions of racism have changed, the ubiquitous threat of being branded a “racist,” the contradictions within identity politics, recent echoes of the OJ verdict, willingness among progressives to lose the 2020 election, racism as the all-purpose explanation of racial disparities in the U.S., double standards for the black community, the war on drugs, the lure of identity politics, police violence, the enduring riddle of affirmative action, the politics of “black face,” and other topics. I get that. I will tell you, Sam, when people who do not look like you hear you telling them that this is just identity politics, they don’t think, “God he’s right. The End of Faith won the 2005 PEN Award for Nonfiction. You don’t seem to see a lot of people saying, “Hey, like, let’s resuscitate the mid-20th century versions of white races.” Instead, we group what we now think of as white people together. There are a lot of white commentators, of which I am also one, who look at what’s happening on some campuses, or look at what happens on Twitter mobs, or whatever, and they see a threat to them. This is another book in a different way that is a huge argument for cutting social spending, which in part he justifies by saying, we are trying to redress racial inequality based on an idea that it is a product of American history, when in fact it is some combination of innate and environmental, but at any rate, it is not something we’re going to be able to change, and so we should stop trying, or at least stop trying in the way we have been. The quote is, this is the exact quote: “Sam Harris appeared to be ignorant of facts that were well known to everyone in the field of intelligence studies.” Now that’s since been quietly removed from the article, but it was there and it’s archived. I did that podcast, again exactly a year ago. Again, much of that is described from my point of view, but I think the timeline is accurate. Writing. I’m not going to make you answer for everyone who you did not have on your show, but who has a more sinister view than the person you did have on your show. Most of these groups are defined based on people’s self-identification, and then you can find out genetic analysis that they don’t even come from where they thought they came from. Murray and I are people who need to be conjoined with this horrid history, where our conversation is described as disastrous and dangerous and horrific and trafficking in the most harmful tropes, where we land on the hate speech page of — not even speech, just the hate page — of the Southern Poverty Law Center.

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